Muslims thoughts PART 2 other thread getting long

[cyounus]

Quote:
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
How about the 10 Commandments?




4jay4kay
I would like to give an example of how one word changes the meaning. The Commandments were given to the Prophet Moses (pbuh)

These words were not to be changed, yet when you see them today it says:

Thou shall not kill.
This is incorrect the correct wording is:
Thou shall not commit murder.

by changing one word the true meaning is gone

[Ladyjinx]

My main problemb with the bible is that many people can read it and each one can tell you the meaning is somthing different then the other.
(I am not attacking it or putting it down i know its a very revered holy book)
However David Korish (not sure of spelling) used it for his purposes........
the kool aid guy (forgot his name, on tip of tongue but cant remember exactly) used it for his purposes.

My point being you can usually get what ever it is you want out of it.......instead of just seeing clearly what its supposed to say.

[cyounus]

Lady,
The thing about that is, if one is reading the Quran, it to can mean different thing at different time. What it means to me now is different than it did when I was younger.

What I find that is the inaccruacies in the bible because on the number of interpitations.

[Ladyjinx]

yes but the wording is rather straight forward from what i have seen so far..but im new to it.
I've just seen the bible used in so many bad ways.
I'm positive it was not/is not meant to be used that way.

[cyounus]

I had posted this on another thread but you can see that spiecal care use taken that pervented the Quran from being changed.


This may be very long post and PLEASE if I am incorrect in any part someone speak out LOUDLY.

The Quran was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH) bit be bit over a peroid of 23 years. As eash revelation was given, the verses were learnt by heart and jotted down on whatever was at hand.

The Surahs (chapters) are not in chronological order, however. It is generally accepted that the first words are in Surah 96:1-5 and the final words are in Surah 5. The order was also something revealed to the Prophet, who had to recite the whole collection revealed so far to the angle Gabriel every Ramadan, and the entire text was checked with the angle twice, shortly before the Prophet died.

The The first Caliph, Abu Bakr, requested the Prophet's companion, Zaid ibn Thabit, to make a complete written version in one Book. He did not alter the messages in any way; no explanations or editorial comments were added. This text was given to the Prophets widow Hafsah, the daughter of Caliph Umar. In the reign of Caliph Uthman, about 23 years after the Prophets death, any other versions which individuals had were either checked for full agreement against this one, or destroyed. Numerous copies of the standard text were made and sent to all chief Muslim centres, and all copies since then have been Identical.

The earliest known Quran that still exist are in Tashkent and Istanbul. The Tashkent Quran has recently been photocopied.

PLEASE, JUST BECAUSE I USED THE WORD CALIPHS, NO SHI'IT -VS- SUNNI DEBATES, I BEG YOU.

[cyounus]

Lets face it GOD, knows how dence I can be so the Quran would have to be simple for me to understand.

[Ladyjinx]

LOL your far from dence C!
But yeah so far to me it seems pretty simple and straight forward......
but like i said i'm really new to reading it.

[Ladyjinx]

Also someone had posted once adn i dont rember their name, passages where Jesus said he was not God but a messenger.......
Then right under that posted a passage where Jesus claimed to be God.
This is another thing i mean about anyone can get what they want out of it.
Seems if they want to justify anything all they have to do is search long enough and they can go "AHA! it says so right here!"

[Ladyjinx]

LOL you can if you wish Cyounus .
But it was the same person in the same post i was talking about that had posted both passages.
The bible is a great book i am not trying to bash it in the least...
I just dont think it is the ONLY way to God.
And i think you need to be a Rocket scientist to get through it.

[cyounus]

The following is from the Bible

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."
[ Acts 2:22 ]

``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life.''
[ John 5:24 ]

Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [John17:1-3 ]


These are Surahs from the Quran

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

[4:172] The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshipping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.

[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate!

[5:116] GOD will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

[5:118] "If You punish them, they are Your constituents. If You forgive them, You are the Almighty, Most Wise."

[DH]

An interesting note is that I read that there might have been some disagreements over the final versions of the the Qur'an. Since Caliph Uthman burned all the original copies, supposedly the others, like Ali, agreed with his version and said it was identical to theirs. Some accused Uthman with tampering with the holy text. The other texts, beside's Uthman's were going around in Syria and Egypt. But Uthman banned the other versions of the holy text.

One of Uthman's actions, controversial at the time, is now the act for which he is remembered. He headed a committee that established the basic text of the Qur'an. Various Muslim centers, like Kufa and Damascus, had begun to develop their own traditions for reciting and writing down the Qur'an. Uthman feared that the nascent Islamic empire would fall apart in religious controversy if it did not have a sacred text recognized by everyone. Sometime during the end of his reign, the committee produced a text. Uthman had it copied and sent copies to each of the Muslim cities and garrison towns, commanding that variant versions of the Qur'an be destroyed, and only his version used. Many devout believers believed that his actions were high-handed and accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman

[Debookwrm]

Originally posted by DH
Actually, I read that there might have been some disagreements over the surahs in the Qur'an. Since Caliph Uthman burned all the original copies, supposedly the others, like Ali, agreed with his version and said it was identical to theirs. Some accused Uthman with tampering with the holy text. the other texts, beside's Uthman's were going around in Syria and Egypt. But Uthman banned the other versions of the holy text.

Was he between Muhammad and Ali?

[cyounus]

Deb, I am not sure I understand you question.

[Debookwrm]

Originally posted by cyounus
Deb, I am not sure I understand you question.

I'll check the book and see if I can figure it out.

Deb

[DH]

Originally posted by Debookwrm
Was he between Muhammad and Ali?

after Prophet Mohammed, there was Abu Bakr, then Omar, then Uthman and then Ali.

[cyounus]

Are you asking about Caliph Uthman.

[DH]

^
Sorry,since I am new here...What are U2U's?Are they messages and PMs?

[Ladyjinx]

yes on bottom of post is a u2u button and you can private message that person with it.
I so need to get some books...........

[cyounus]

Originally posted by DH
An interesting note is that I read that there might have been some disagreements over the final versions of the the Qur'an. Since Caliph Uthman burned all the original copies, supposedly the others, like Ali, agreed with his version and said it was identical to theirs. Some accused Uthman with tampering with the holy text. The other texts, beside's Uthman's were going around in Syria and Egypt. But Uthman banned the other versions of the holy text.

One of Uthman's actions, controversial at the time, is now the act for which he is remembered. He headed a committee that established the basic text of the Qur'an. Various Muslim centers, like Kufa and Damascus, had begun to develop their own traditions for reciting and writing down the Qur'an. Uthman feared that the nascent Islamic empire would fall apart in religious controversy if it did not have a sacred text recognized by everyone. Sometime during the end of his reign, the committee produced a text. Uthman had it copied and sent copies to each of the Muslim cities and garrison towns, commanding that variant versions of the Qur'an be destroyed, and only his version used. Many devout believers believed that his actions were high-handed and accused Uthman of tampering with the sacred book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman


I had posted this above, It expalins the writen Quran

The first Caliph, Abu Bakr, requested the Prophet's companion, Zaid ibn Thabit, to make a complete written version in one Book. He did not alter the messages in any way; no explanations or editorial comments were added. This text was given to the Prophets widow Hafsah, the daughter of Caliph Umar. In the reign of Caliph Uthman, about 23 years after the Prophets death, any other versions which individuals had were either checked for full agreement against this one, or destroyed. Numerous copies of the standard text were made and sent to all chief Muslim centres, and all copies since then have been Identical.

The earliest known Quran that still exist are in Tashkent and Istanbul. The Tashkent Quran has recently been photocopied.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
Quote:
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
How about the 10 Commandments?




4jay4kay
I would like to give an example of how one word changes the meaning. The Commandments were given to the Prophet Moses (pbuh)

These words were not to be changed, yet when you see them today it says:

Thou shall not kill.
This is incorrect the correct wording is:
Thou shall not commit murder.

by changing one word the true meaning is gone



Are you saying Kill and Murder are not the same thing?

[cyounus]

YES! Not only are they not the same thing do you wnat me to quote the bible or do you want to do it. I will give you a hint. look up punishment

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
Quote:
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
How about the 10 Commandments?




4jay4kay
I would like to give an example of how one word changes the meaning. The Commandments were given to the Prophet Moses (pbuh)

These words were not to be changed, yet when you see them today it says:

Thou shall not kill.
This is incorrect the correct wording is:
Thou shall not commit murder.

by changing one word the true meaning is gone



Answer: Kill:
Killing, causing the death of a human being or an animal.

Answer: Murder:
Murder, in criminal law, intentionally causing the death (homicide) of any person.


Now could you tell me what the difference between kill and murder are? Thanks

[Ladyjinx]

I do not know what the actual wording is
however i do not think God would want you to just sit by and watch someone be killed and do nothing to stop it, and yes somtimes the only way to stop it is to kill.
However if you go out and attack someone who is not harming you ......then its murder.
So i can see how this would make a very big difference.

[4Jay4Kay]

So Muslims don't believe in any part of the bible...correct?? since you say its full of errors.

So I have two questions. Why in the Big Brother house did Kaysar and the others refer to him as a Christian Muslim, when Christians and Muslims contradict eachother???

And also at one point in the Big Brother House Kaysar and Janelle were talking about religion and Kaysar said Muslims believe in The Old Testament of the Holy Bible.
The 10 Commandments are in the Old Testament, exactly what you are saying is in error.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
I will wait for your answer of who will look up it up in the bible

You want me to look up punishment in the bible is that what you are asking?

[cyounus]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
So Muslims don't believe in any part of the bible...correct?? since you say its full of errors.

So I have two questions. Why in the Big Brother house did Kaysar and the others refer to him as a Christian Muslim, when Christians and Muslims contradict eachother???

And also at one point in the Big Brother House Kaysar and Janelle were talking about religion and Kaysar said Muslims believe in The Old Testament of the Holy Bible.
The 10 Commandments are in the Old Testament, exactly what you are saying is in error.

to my knowledge no one has ever said that the Torah and the Testements were not inspired by God, just the oppiset. What I said was that man has changed the meaning of the Holy Words throughout time by changing words to meet with their own ends, so that the bible is now distorted.

[4Jay4Kay]

Definition: \Pun"ish*ment\, n.
Severe, rough, or disastrous treatment. [Colloq. or Slang]


\Pun"ish*ment\, n.
1. The act of punishing.

2. Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because
of a crime or offense.

I never gave them condign punishment. --Shak.

The rewards and punishments of another life.
--Locke.

3. (Law) A penalty inflicted by a court of justice on a
convicted offender as a just retribution, and incidentally
for the purposes of reformation and prevention.


Not sure what verse you want but here are some Bible Verses on Punishment

Gen 4:13
Lev 26:41
Lev 26:43
1 Sam 28:10
Job 31:3
Prov 19:19
Lam 3:39
Lam4:6
Lam 4:22
Eze 14:10
Amos 1:3
Amos 1:6
Amos 1:9
Amos 1:11
Amos 1:13
Amos 2:1
Amos 2:4
Amos 2:6
Zec 14:19
Mt 25:46
2 Cor 2:6
Heb 10:29
1 Pet 2:14

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
So Muslims don't believe in any part of the bible...correct?? since you say its full of errors.

So I have two questions. Why in the Big Brother house did Kaysar and the others refer to him as a Christian Muslim, when Christians and Muslims contradict eachother???

And also at one point in the Big Brother House Kaysar and Janelle were talking about religion and Kaysar said Muslims believe in The Old Testament of the Holy Bible.
The 10 Commandments are in the Old Testament, exactly what you are saying is in error.

to my knowledge no one has ever said that the Torah and the Testements were not inspired by God, just the oppiset. What I said was that man has changed the meaning of the Holy Words throughout time by changing words to meet with their own ends, so that the bible is now distorted.

Well its obivious that we will never agree on this matter. For one as a Christian I believe the bible is without error. Even with all the different translations they mean the same thing to me. As far as the Quran from a Christians view point it was written by a false prophet.
The bible warns us about false prophets numerous times. Here is one example. This is Jesus speaking in the book of Matthew:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.


Then Jesus goes on to say:

Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. MANY will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not PROPHESY in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, Away from me you evildoers!!

[4Jay4Kay]

The bible says: There is no way to God except through Jesus Christ...

Jesus Says in John 14:6 " I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."

This verse tells us There is no other way to heaven except through Jesus Christ!

Romans 10:9-11 "If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[mkaw]

Originally posted by cyounus
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only are they not the same thing do you wnat me to quote the bible or do you want to do it. I will give you a hint. look up punishment

Okay, I've looked up "punishment" in my NSRV study bible. There are 4 listings. The first is on Cain and Able (Genesis). Is that what you're getting at?

I don't know. I'm just a lawyer and before that I majored in linguistics. Anything that is written or said is subject to interpretation. Legislative drafters spend so much time trying to make things unambiguous and it is impossible.

Every holy book has been misinterpreted and used as justification for evil. You can't blame the Bible or Quran for that.

As for translations, there are pros and cons. Translations allow speakers of different languages to have easier access to holy books. The downside is that the translations will not be exactly the same as the original. Bible scholars try their best. They try to incorporate new evidence (eg. dead sea scrolls). The Bible is older than the Quran. It makes sense that it will be harder to find versions from when it was written.

[Ladyjinx]

Dont you think maybe that means , beleiveing the message that there is a God and that you have to ask for fogiveness?
That if you do not take heed to the message of God sent by Jesus then you wont see heaven?
Thats kinda what it looks like it says to me.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by mkaw
Originally posted by cyounus
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only are they not the same thing do you wnat me to quote the bible or do you want to do it. I will give you a hint. look up punishment

Okay, I've looked up "punishment" in my NSRV study bible. There are 4 listings. The first is on Cain and Able (Genesis). Is that what you're getting at?

I don't know. I'm just a lawyer and before that I majored in linguistics. Anything that is written or said is subject to interpretation. Legislative drafters spend so much time trying to make things unambiguous and it is impossible.

Every holy book has been misinterpreted and used as justification for evil. You can't blame the Bible or Quran for that.

As for translations, there are pros and cons. Translations allow speakers of different languages to have easier access to holy books. The downside is that the translations will not be exactly the same as the original. Bible scholars try their best. They try to incorporate new evidence (eg. dead sea scrolls). The Bible is older than the Quran. It makes sense that it will be harder to find versions from when it was written.

Are you a Christian Mkaw?

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Dont you think maybe that means , beleiveing the message that there is a God and that you have to ask for fogiveness?
That if you do not take heed to the message of God sent by Jesus then you wont see heaven?
Thats kinda what it looks like it says to me.


Those quotes are from the bible. So yes if you believe in the God of the Bible. it tells you that JESUS is the way and that NO one can go to Father God except Through Jesus Christ.
" I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."

[cyounus]

Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

Leviticus 20:16 - And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Numbers 35:27 - And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:


Do you realy want me to go on? As you can see using your bible, they are different. GOD sent down the laws to be obayed

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Dont you think maybe that means , beleiveing the message that there is a God and that you have to ask for fogiveness?
That if you do not take heed to the message of God sent by Jesus then you wont see heaven?
Thats kinda what it looks like it says to me.


Those quotes are from the bible. So yes if you believe in the God of the Bible. it tells you that JESUS is the way and that NO one can go to Father God except Through Jesus Christ.
" I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me."


If you are going to believe in God of the bible and expect a relationship with him, yes you have to believe in The Holy BIBlE and what it says obey the gospel and repent of your sins.

No if your believing in the God of The Quran I don't know what it takes to get to their "Heaven" and be saved.

I do know that most Muslims I talk to will plainly tell me if I do not believe in the Muslim faith then I am going to Hell, but I have faith in the Holy Bible that it is with our Error, I have a personal relationship With The Lord Jesus Christ. I feel the Holy Spirit. I have 100% faith in what the bible tells me, what historical facts tell me, what the eye witness accounts tell us. I have NOOOOOOO Doubt what so ever!!

[Ladyjinx]

Well its my personal beleif that there is only ONE God, so the God of the Bible is the same God of the Quran.
He is the God of everything, cuz he is God.
Now you may disagree on the messages, because we are human and not all knowing. But there is only one God.
I just cant even concieve of there being more then one God.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Well its my personal beleif that there is only ONE God, so the God of the Bible is the same God of the Quran.
He is the God of everything, cuz he is God.
Now you may disagree on the messages, because we are human and not all knowing. But there is only one God.
I just cant even concieve of there being more then one God.

You are 100% correct Lady. There is only One God, but this 1 God is not a liar and inspires both The Holy Bible and The Quran two very different books that contradict eachother. So there is only one explaination. One of the Books is Wrong. And based on what my heart tells me, What Historical facts tell me, What historical eye witness accounts tell me and what The holy spirit tells me. I believe the Bible is the only True God Inspired Book. Not the Quran nor any other book that is said to be God inspired yet contradicts all the Other so called God inspired books such as The Book of Mormon.

[4Jay4Kay]

Cyn, here's that question again


So Muslims don't believe in any part of the bible...correct?? since you say its full of errors.

So I have two questions. Why in the Big Brother house did Kaysar and the others refer to him as a Christian Muslim, when Christians and Muslims contradict eachother???

And also at one point in the Big Brother House Kaysar and Janelle were talking about religion and Kaysar said Muslims believe in The Old Testament of the Holy Bible.
The 10 Commandments are in the Old Testament, exactly what you are saying is in error.

[cyounus]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay


Well its obivious that we will never agree on this matter. For one as a Christian I believe the bible is without error. Even with all the different translations they mean the same thing to me. As far as the Quran from a Christians view point it was written by a false prophet.
The bible warns us about false prophets numerous times. Here is one example. This is Jesus speaking in the book of Matthew:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.


Then Jesus goes on to say:

Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. MANY will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not PROPHESY in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, Away from me you evildoers!!

I am happy that you are steed fast in your religion. However I too am steed fast in nime. The differance is that I know the Bible and the Quran, being the daughter of a baptist Decon I had to know it. You however, have addmitted that you do not know the Quran.

So why are you here?

[Ladyjinx]

i dont know enough about either of the books to really comment on that.
I"m still learning, but i really think they have the same basic message from what i have seen so far.
My biggest thing is that there is one and only one God.

[4Jay4Kay]

Whether or not God exist is an important question. But actually knowing this God is even more important.
What we are made for? What aim should we have in life? To know God. What is the best thing in life? To know God. What in man gives God most pleasure? Knowledge of himself. But who can prove it?
Jesus said to his disciples:

"Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in Me.
In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know"

Thomas said to him,
LORD, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way? Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.
If you had known Me, you would have known my Father also. JohN 14:1-7

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay


Well its obivious that we will never agree on this matter. For one as a Christian I believe the bible is without error. Even with all the different translations they mean the same thing to me. As far as the Quran from a Christians view point it was written by a false prophet.
The bible warns us about false prophets numerous times. Here is one example. This is Jesus speaking in the book of Matthew:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.


Then Jesus goes on to say:

Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. MANY will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not PROPHESY in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you, Away from me you evildoers!!

If I am happy that you are steed fast in your religion. However I too am steed fast in nime. The differance is that I know the Bible and the Quran, being the daughter of a baptist Decon I had to know it. You however, have addmitted that you do not know the Quran.

So why are you here?

I know enough about the Quran to know that it contradicts my beliefs.

And are you saying you have to know the Quran upside down to be here?

[cyounus]

I'm sorry, I'm not GOD so therefore I can not tell you what he was thinking why he said what was said. Why not ask him? As for what people were calling him , you would have to ask them.

As I stated above to my knowledge no one has ever said that the Torah and the Testements were not inspired by God, just the oppiset. What I said was that man has changed the meaning of the Holy Words throughout time by changing words to meet with their own ends, so that the bible is now distorted.

[4Jay4Kay]

Cyn since you are a Muslim and are stead fast in your religion could you please tell me what A Christian Muslim is? I know Kaysar was a so called "Christian Muslim"

Also, why did Kaysar say he believes in the Old Testament of the Bible, if you don't? Is that what a Christian Muslim is?

[4Jay4Kay]

So there is no such thing as a Christian Muslim? or you just dont know?

[4Jay4Kay]

Since the Bible was written way before the Quran do you think its possible that The Quran was based off the Holy Bible but made into Man's own religion? Not God of The Holy Bible inspired?

[cyounus]

I am saying, that you cannot give adequate information about the Quran if you have a knowledge deficiency.

However, if you are here to exspand that knowledge then you are in the right place

[4Jay4Kay]

Have any of the Prophecies in the Quran been full-filled?

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
I am saying, that you cannot give adequate information about the Quran if you have a knowledge deficiency.

However, if you are here to exspand that knowledge then you are in the right place

You are correct I do not know the Quran upside down, but like I said I know enough of it to know that it contradicts The Holy Bible and My religion.
And I am here to represent my faith and what the truth is. If you are on the wrong path wouldn't you want to know? Most people would.

Jesus said Enter through the narrow gate For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

What does that verse say to you Cyn?

[cyounus]

read my lips.

I DO NOT KNOW WHO CALLED WHO WHAT. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT TERM. WHY NOT ASK WHOEVER SAID IT.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING (3rd time posted)

As I stated above to my knowledge no one has ever said that the Torah and the Testements were not inspired by God, just the oppiset. What I said was that man has changed the meaning of the Holy Words throughout time by changing words to meet with their own ends, so that the bible is now distorted.

[cyounus]

Ok, You want Quran 101, Would you like to start at the begaining? We can set a thread for that. It might be helpful if you could access a Quran, maybe online?

[Hashman]

4Jay4Kay, read http://al-islam.org/IslamInTheBible/ ... it'll answer some of your questions. I'll assume that you'll read it fully.

(And I would request that you keep your posts on topic. This forum is about Islam, so messages should at least be tied to that subject.)

[4Jay4Kay]

I sense you are getting alittle hostile. Kaysar himself said he was Christian Muslim to the people in the Big Brother House, but since you are completely clueless to that term, then maybe someone else can answer my question.

[cyounus]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
I sense you are getting alittle hostile. Kaysar himself said he was Christian Muslim to the people in the Big Brother House, but since you are completely clueless to that term, then maybe someone else can answer my question.

Whay would you think I am hostile. I thought you wanted to learn more so that you could expand your knowledge? Did I misunderstand?

[4Jay4Kay]

what does this verse say to you? Not asking if you believe in it, since I know you don't believe in the bible and Jesus and God. I'm just asking what this verse means to you, if you were to read it in any ole book.


Jesus said Enter through the narrow gate For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
read my lips.

I DO NOT KNOW WHO CALLED WHO WHAT. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT TERM. WHY NOT ASK WHOEVER SAID IT.

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING (3rd time posted)

As I stated above to my knowledge no one has ever said that the Torah and the Testements were not inspired by God, just the oppiset. What I said was that man has changed the meaning of the Holy Words throughout time by changing words to meet with their own ends, so that the bible is now distorted.
Well Read my lips is not a very nice term and the Bold Caps that Follow usually mean Hostility.. Am I wrong?

[cyounus]

Because I stated on 2 other post that I don't know and I thought maybe you were missing my post because it someitmes takes me a min to reply

[4Jay4Kay]

This is a question off topic of the Bible or Quran, but just curious as to what decent you are Cyn, if you don't mind me asking :)

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Have any of the Prophecies in the Quran been full-filled?

Didn't want you to miss this question. :)

[cyounus]

Yes, I believe Hashman has posted a website that would go more into detail.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
Yes, I believe Hashman has posted a website that would go more into detail.

Go into more detail of the prophecies full-filled? Could you just give me a quick run down. Lets say we are having this conversation over coffee and that website isn't there. Quick run down will do for now :)

thanks

[cyounus]

I am Native American, converted several years ago. married with 2 boys 24y/o and 11y/o.

Before you ask, No I did not convert for my husband (I do not believe in that) I converted before I met him.

[4Jay4Kay]

What converted you? and what were your beliefs before you were "converted"

[cyounus]

It is 5:31 here, I must go to the Masque. I will return about 11:00 if not sooner.

Lady if you are there I will talk to you later, Ezz is feeling better

[Hashman]

4Jay4Kay, that question is unimportant to Muslims because we don't follow the Christian belief that the book must have prophecies to be considered the word of God.

[Winter80-sara]

Ok just curious what is a christian muslim? Does that mean he believe in Jesus the way Christians do?

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Hashman
4Jay4Kay, that question is unimportant to Muslims because we don't follow the Christian belief that the book must have prophecies to be considered the word of God.

So since its unimportant to Muslims, the question can't be answered? I didn't ask if it was important. I asked about the prophecies being full-filled. Surely even though its not important to you, you would know if it was full filled. Correct?

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Winter80
Ok just curious what is a christian muslim? Does that mean he believe in Jesus the way Christians do?

I don't know Winter. I've been asking that question, but Cyn was the only one here and has never heard it. Am I wrong, didn't Kaysar say he was a Christian Muslim?

[4Jay4Kay]

Kaysar also told Janelle that he believed in The Old Testament, just not the New.

[Hashman]

In addition to "Islam in the Bible", you should read the book "The Bible, The Quran and Science" by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (a non-Muslim). Here's an excerpt from the conclusion, which I also posted elsewhere on this site:

The Qur'an follows on from the two Revelations that preceded it and is not only free from contradictions in its narrations, the sign of the various human manipulations to be found in the Gospels, but provides a quality all of its own for those who examine it objectively and in the light of science i.e. its complete agreement with modern scientific data. What is more, statements are to be found in it (as has been shown) that are connected with science: and yet it is unthinkable that a man of Muhammad's time could have been the author of them. Modern scientific knowledge therefore allows us to understand certain verses of the Qur'an which, until now, it has been impossible to interpret.

The comparison of several Biblical and Qur'anic narrations of the same subject shows the existence of fundamental differences between statements in the former, which are scientifically unacceptable, and declarations in the latter which are in perfect agreement with modern data: this was the case of the Creation and the Flood, for example. An extremely important complement to the Bible was found in the text of the Qur'an on the subject of the history of the Exodus, where the two texts were very much in agreement with archaeological findings, in the dating of the time of Moses. Besides, there are major differences between the Qur'an and the Bible on the other subjects: they serve to disprove all that has been maintained-without a scrap of evidence-concerning the allegation that Muhammad is supposed to have copied the Bible to produce the text of the Qur'an.

When a comparative study is made between the statements connected with science to be found in the collection of hadiths, which are attributed to Muhammad but are often of dubious authenticity (although they reflect the beliefs of the period), and the data of a similar kind in the Qur'an, the disparity becomes so obvious that any notion of a common origin is ruled out.

In view of the level of knowledge in Muhammad's day, it is inconceivable that many of the statements In the Qur'an which are connected with science could have been the work of a man. It is, moreover, perfectly legitimate, not only to regard the Qur'an as the expression of a Revelation, but also to award it a very special place, on account of the guarantee of authenticity it provides and the presence in it of scientific statements which, when studied today, appear as a challenge to explanation in human terms.

That conclusion addresses some of your questions directly.

You can find the full text at http://home.swipnet.se/islam/quran-bible.htm

[4Jay4Kay]

Cool! Thanks for the book recommendation.

Here's some for you. written by Lee Strobel, once an Athiest.

"The Case For Christ" "The Case For Faith" "The Case For Creation"

[Hashman]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
So since its unimportant to Muslims, the question can't be answered? I didn't ask if it was important. I asked about the prophecies being full-filled. Surely even though its not important to you, you would know if it was full filled. Correct?
Incorrect. I have better things to think about and study. :)

[Hashman]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Kaysar also told Janelle that he believed in The Old Testament, just not the New.
If you're not going to read the book I recommended, at least take a look at Chapter 12 of it.

[4Jay4Kay]

Oh so you just don't know. Well maybe someone who knows will come along and answer my question.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Hashman
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
So since its unimportant to Muslims, the question can't be answered? I didn't ask if it was important. I asked about the prophecies being full-filled. Surely even though its not important to you, you would know if it was full filled. Correct?
Incorrect. I have better things to think about and study. :)

So what are you studying?

[Ladyjinx]

I dont see how anyone would know if the prophocies have occurred?
How can you say?
other then the coming of christ and other prophits, how can you know?
So there is a hurricane , and earth quake a tsumoni they are not the first and most likely won't be the last.
Same with any other prophecy other then the coming of prophets, how can you actually ever really know?

[Hashman]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Cool! Thanks for the book recommendation.

Here's some for you. written by Lee Strobel, once an Athiest.

"The Case For Christ" "The Case For Faith" "The Case For Creation"
You lost me there. Did I ask some questions anywhere that these books would address? That was the sole reason I posted those links for you. If your questions were sincere, then I'm sure you will read the info at those links.

[mkaw]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Originally posted by mkaw
Originally posted by cyounus
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only are they not the same thing do you wnat me to quote the bible or do you want to do it. I will give you a hint. look up punishment

Okay, I've looked up "punishment" in my NSRV study bible. There are 4 listings. The first is on Cain and Able (Genesis). Is that what you're getting at?

I don't know. I'm just a lawyer and before that I majored in linguistics. Anything that is written or said is subject to interpretation. Legislative drafters spend so much time trying to make things unambiguous and it is impossible.

Every holy book has been misinterpreted and used as justification for evil. You can't blame the Bible or Quran for that.

As for translations, there are pros and cons. Translations allow speakers of different languages to have easier access to holy books. The downside is that the translations will not be exactly the same as the original. Bible scholars try their best. They try to incorporate new evidence (eg. dead sea scrolls). The Bible is older than the Quran. It makes sense that it will be harder to find versions from when it was written.

Are you a Christian Mkaw?

I'm Christian (Anglican).

My main concern is respect for others religion.

For the last few years I have been involved with the Aboriginal residential school litigation in Canada. It has really affected me, talking to people who were forcibly taken from their parents, forbidden to practice their religion, forbidden to speak their languages. I have very definite views on how religion should be shared. Also, I will never again believe that it is right for me to want/expect everyone else to share my religion.

[Ali al-Mahdi]

A Christian and a Muslim are following two different faiths. One cannot be both.

[Ladyjinx]

Cyounus i think a Quran 101 thread would be great :)
Also Glad Ezz is better :}}

[Winter80-sara]

I didnt think a christian muslim was possible but then again what do i know. I just doesnt make since

[Ladyjinx]

Well i'm still trying to figure out just what a "Christian" is.
Some say its beleiving that Jesus was God but there are other so called "Christians" who do not beleive Jesus was God.
So i'm very confused there.

[Hashman]

I think the "Christian Muslim" comment was a light hearted one. Like the BB6 houseguests, most non-Muslims are unaware that Muslims believe in the prophethood of Christ and the revelation of the other holy books. So when Kaysar described some of those very basic beliefs of Islam, he was labelled as a "Christian Muslim".

Another book by the author of "Islam In the Bible" describes more about how Muslims view the Old Testament and New Testament:

There are two traditional ways by which Muslims use the Bible. The first is to point to textual criticism, the research done by Christian and liberal Jewish scholars showing the Bible to be defective. The conclusion is that the Bible is unreliable, and therefore Christianity is unreliable. This approach is sometimes effective in drawing some people to Islam. However, it has two weaknesses. Textual criticism itself as a method is questionable, and to appeal to it in the case of the Bible is to invite a similar approach on the part of Christians in reference to the holy Qur’an. The result is often name-calling rather than progress in finding truth.



The second traditional way by which Muslims make use of the Bible is to select passages that seem to support Islam, specifically in the matter of the oneness of Allah and the prophethood of Muhammad (as). It appears that a great deal could be done in this area that has not yet been done. Somewhat inconsistently, some people use both approaches at the same time.

More at http://www.al-islam.org/invitationhowto/

[cyounus]

Hashman,
I think that is very well said. As for the christian muslim question, let him ask whoever said it or u2u Kaysar.

I appologize to anyone who thought I was harsh, I, in no way would want to disrepect anyone. My offer to answer question to the best of my ability on the Quran and about Islam is very genuine.

[aXorb]

The interesting thing about religion is that it is based on faith and faith is unique to every person. So I could believe in Islam and Christianity, understand their contradictions but believe them both to be true. How is this you ask? Because it is taken on faith and I could be a very confused person. Just like any of you. Your faith could be completely wrong and you could be just confused. So if a person wants to believe in Christianity and Islam they can. Just like people can worship stars or trees or Godzilla.

About Kaysar being a Christian Muslim, he is not. He is a Muslim. I do not know enough about the Quran to start quoting it but I do know a lot about religion in general. Judaism, Islam, and all forms of Christiantity (including those wacky Mormons and Jehoviah's Witnesses) are based of of the old testament. Christians go on to have the new testament, Muslims have their Quran and Jews keep it nice and simple with just the Torah.

That all being I said I can't quite put my finger on what this all important question was but it looks like something to do with prophecy. Let me give you all a little hint about prophecy. IT'S RETARDED. I can, right now, make 10 prophecies (modernly called predictions) and guarantee they will all come true. Why? It's a numbers game. It's statistics.

About the Bible / Quran / Torah changing over the years - The torah is the same. The Quran is the same. The Bible is not. It has been changed and meanings have been lost to a degree. Sad but true. Thou shalt not kill. WTF!? Correctly read it says "Thou shalt not MURDER". The god of the Jews, Muslims, Christians is a fierce, vengeful, violent god. If you disagree, go talk to the residents of Jericho or Sodom.

**These are all my own personal opinions, I am a Christian, I just hate organized religion equally.**

[Ottojr]

I keep it simple by being an atheist. :)

[cyounus]

Originally posted by Ottojr
I keep it simple by being an atheist. :)

You kill me :)

[cyounus]

I apprecaite your response and clearing up the Kaysar question


Originally posted by aXorb

About the Bible / Quran / Torah changing over the years - The torah is the same. The Quran is the same. The Bible is not. It has been changed and meanings have been lost to a degree. Sad but true. Thou shalt not kill. WTF!? Correctly read it says "Thou shalt not MURDER". The god of the Jews, Muslims, Christians is a fierce, vengeful, violent god. If you disagree, go talk to the residents of Jericho or Sodom.

**These are all my own personal opinions, I am a Christian, I just hate organized religion equally.**

We all have personal opinions, the balance is respecting those diff. from our own

Again Thank You

[Kay]

Been readiang some on this continued topic and saw where there is a dispute between the word kill and murder as in "Thou shalt not kill."

So, I looked it up.

It is interesting to know that according to the Strong's Dictionary of Old Testament words, ratsach‚ is the word used. According to the Strongs, it's a "prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), espec. to murder:-to put to death, kill (manslay)(er), murder(er).

Note the primary reference seems to indicate murder.
Why the word 'kill' was used, I don't know, unless in the English, it has multiple meanings since English comes from many languages.
My question: is 'ratsach' Aramaic or Hebrew?

[cyounus]

This is a question for Hashman, I doon't know the answer. I can try to find it.

[Kay]

4J4K.

On the 11th, Cyounus asked you a question: 'So why are you here?'

I'm wondering the same thing.

I'm a Christian, and like others, came here to learn about a religion I had been taught/heard about, in the negative light.
Since coming here, I've learned a lot I believed was nonsense. There are so many similarities, I'm awed.
These people, cyonous, the1, hashman, Ali, MPR (wherever did he get to?), and others are not trying to cram their beliefs down anyone's throat. They have been more than willing to share and answer our questions, often repetitive questions, and they've been patient.

So I ask: Are you here to learn about a religion you don't understand?
If not, then what is your primary reason for being here?

[Kay]

Thanks Cyonous,
Appreciate that. Sent you a u2u.

And 4j4k,
Direct answer please.

[Hashman]

Sorry, I don't know about the origin of 'ratsach'... Google didn't help much, either.

[cyounus]

Kay, this is what I found, it is Hebrew. if you go to the following site is also gives meaning and bible verses

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07523&version=kjv

[Kay]

Thanks for trying Hashman. I use google too, and sometimes you find it, sometimes you don't!

Cyonous, thanks. Will be looking at that later.

[Kay]

Originally posted by Kay
4J4K.

On the 11th, Cyounus asked you a question: 'So why are you here?'

I'm wondering the same thing.

I'm a Christian, and like others, came here to learn about a religion I had been taught/heard about, in the negative light.
Since coming here, I've learned a lot I believed was nonsense. There are so many similarities, I'm awed.
These people, cyonous, the1, hashman, Ali, MPR (wherever did he get to?), and others are not trying to cram their beliefs down anyone's throat. They have been more than willing to share and answer our questions, often repetitive questions, and they've been patient.

So I ask: Are you here to learn about a religion you don't understand?
If not, then what is your primary reason for being here?

[aXorb]

Aetheism is not simple. There is a lot more work to it than you probably think. The idea of being an Atheist is that you believe there is no God and you can support it with evidence. I believe the simple version is Agnosticism. That means you don't know.

[cyounus]

Originally posted by aXorb
Aetheism is not simple. There is a lot more work to it than you probably think. The idea of being an Atheist is that you believe there is no God and you can support it with evidence. I believe the simple version is Agnosticism. That means you don't know.

Before I changed my profession I was in the medical field. I have witness many people pass from this life to the next. The one thig that I can say is that at the time of passing, every Atheist that I witnessed said Oh GOD, as if at that moment they know HE exsisted.

[cyounus]

No, I went to medical school at UCLA and owned Country Feeling Home Health in Okla.

[cyounus]

I got so burned out. I went back to school. As you know, I am now working at an Arch/Eng. office.

[Ladyjinx]

i sent you a couple u2u's C.

[Kay]

I burned out too.

[boobev]

Good morning and God bless you all,
It is funny how God uses people. He puts us in the right place at the right time.
I hope that what I have said or done in this Forum has been pleasing to him. Last night at Church My Pastor spoke on Who is Jesus. I thought that very fitting after being in this forum and chatting this week.
It was from the book of John. John records events leading up to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. You see this book of the Bible is written by someone who new Jesus on a personal level, as is Matthew,Mark, and Luke.
The words I'm going to share with you is from the Bible and are written by John and is what Jesus said while he was living here on earth.

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:57 & 58 Then the Jews said to Him,"You are not yet 50 years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them," Most assuredly, I say to you, before Aberham was, I AM."

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
"I and My Father are one."

John 10:38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, Show us the Father?"

As I have said in other post, " I'm not here to change minds I'm just here to share my thoughts and belief's on Christian thoughts on Jesus Christ." Some have ask How can Jesus be God when God is God and there should be only 1 God. I have given you scripture from the Bible that is known to be Jesus's words. Hope this helps and may You all find what you are looking for. I have found what I am looking for and have peace that passes all understanding.

God Bless ,
Beverly

[Debookwrm]

Originally posted by cyounus
Originally posted by aXorb
Aetheism is not simple. There is a lot more work to it than you probably think. The idea of being an Atheist is that you believe there is no God and you can support it with evidence. I believe the simple version is Agnosticism. That means you don't know.

Before I changed my profession I was in the medical field. I have witness many people pass from this life to the next. The one thig that I can say is that at the time of passing, every Atheist that I witnessed said Oh GOD, as if at that moment they know HE exsisted.

My Grandfather who had great faith experienced the same thing...he even asked them to wait for him once and they let him stay another week...so he believed and I believe him. Not that it was an issue for me either way.

Deb

[Nadirah]

To All,

I have been trying to keep up on the religious topics, and this topic has given me concern over the last few days. First, let me say I was raised Presbyterian and became a Muslim many years ago after a long personal search. One thing I have always tried to do is never argue about the differences between the monotheistic Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religions and concentrate on the similarities, of which there are many. That approach has served me well, and has brought about a much deeper understanding between myself and those that I meet.

I see that Cyounus, Hashman, and Ladyjinx have written so much and tried so hard to open up the topic with 4Jay4Kay and others with little, if any, success. I saw where 4Jay4Kay asked a few pages back about what caused someone to convert to Islam. For me there were always so many questions that I had from when I was very young. The behavior practiced by the people I saw around me was not what I believed Jesus, PBUH, would exhibit, i.e. prejudice, not allowing poorer people to attend, a very closed community, etc. In particular, I was always disturbed by the people feeling they could act any way they liked during the week, attend church, and all was forgiven.

Anyway, once I started my search after college, I read books on different religions, visited different communities, and finally ended up investigating Islam. Two of the most influential people in my search were a married couple from Iraq. When I came up with different questions, they sometimes directed me to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a strictly historical perspective, a perspective that I would not think was biased. And that was what really helped me find my way.

My suggestion to 4Jay4Kay and others would be to read two topics in Encyclopedia Britannica: The Bible and The Council of Nicaea (or Nicene Council). Unfortunately, you cannot read these topics in full online without subscribing, but a good library should still have the books. There are pages and pages on how The Bible came to be. There were many meetings and groups that decided what books to keep in The Bible and what to keep out, meetings that changed or added words to make versions agree, stories added about the Venerable Prophets that were untrue, etc. Even for the New Testament, the Gospels were anonymous and become known as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the second century. As for the Trinity, that was decided during the First Nicene Council in 325 A.D. by another group of men. The problems with the numerous translations is only one of the areas of concern over the authenticity of The Bible as we know it today.

One more thing, I also believe that I am a Muslim and a Christian in the sense that it is a continuum and that Jesus (PBUH) did bring the message from God, that message was later distorted by men, and that Muhammad (PBUH) came to clarify the message. I truly hope that 4Jay4Kay and others will take the time to read from a historical and unbiased source about what happened after Jesus (PBUH) left...

Nadirah

[cyounus]

I love your words.

[Kay]

Nadirah,

Thank you for posting this.

I knew I read somewhere on this forum about someone coming out of a Presbyterian background and convertiang to Islam. I was going to go back and read to try to find who that was and ask what led to that decision, but couldn't find it.

[Ladyjinx]

Nadirah , thank you for posting this, I will find an encylcopedia britannica and read those topics, that sounds very interesting.
again thank you.

[Nadirah]

Thank you all so much for all of your discussions since Kaysar opened this site. I have been reading, particularly during Ramadan - while fasting - and have found much inspiration in your writings! Cyounus has made me refer to the Qur'an and do more reading, too! :)

[cyounus]

We all teach one another. Every time I am answering a questin with a Surah, I myself understand more. Learning is a life long experance.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Kay
4J4K.

On the 11th, Cyounus asked you a question: 'So why are you here?'

I'm wondering the same thing.

I'm a Christian, and like others, came here to learn about a religion I had been taught/heard about, in the negative light.
Since coming here, I've learned a lot I believed was nonsense. There are so many similarities, I'm awed.
These people, cyonous, the1, hashman, Ali, MPR (wherever did he get to?), and others are not trying to cram their beliefs down anyone's throat. They have been more than willing to share and answer our questions, often repetitive questions, and they've been patient.

So I ask: Are you here to learn about a religion you don't understand?
If not, then what is your primary reason for being here?


I am here because I am here. I have a right to be here just as you do. If you think a long post is cramming religion down someone's throat, then that is your own opinion. Just as the muslims are sharing their beliefs I am sharing mine. If you don't want to read them, then you certainly dont have to. I am not personally u2uing You my posts so that you have to read them. Just skip over them, its as simple as that!

[cyounus]

4jay4kay

I am sorry that you feel that way. We all like discussing the subject of this forum (Islam). As for your right to be here; you have the PRIVILAGE awarded by Mr. Kaysar Ridha, the same as we all do. There is no a right of passage.

We have exstended our hand in good faith. All that is ever asked is that respect for this forum be maintained.

[Winter80-sara]

I agree with you Cyounus- There needs to be respect.

[Nadirah]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Originally posted by cyounus
I am saying, that you cannot give adequate information about the Quran if you have a knowledge deficiency.

However, if you are here to exspand that knowledge then you are in the right place

You are correct I do not know the Quran upside down, but like I said I know enough of it to know that it contradicts The Holy Bible and My religion.
And I am here to represent my faith and what the truth is. If you are on the wrong path wouldn't you want to know? Most people would.

Jesus said Enter through the narrow gate For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

What does that verse say to you Cyn?


4J4K, I am sorry that you want to continue on posting this way. As I said earlier, I am not a confrontational person. I try to find some common ground between all who follow monotheistic religions.

I am thrilled that Kay and Ladyjinx and others have come to this website to learn more about Islam, but I am concerned that your postings discourage people from coming - is that your purpose?

You say above that: "If you are on the wrong path wouldn't you want to know? Most people would." Well, I feel just as strongly the same about you. I feel that your mind is totally closed, and that you have not done sufficient research about how the Bible and the Trinity came to be years after Jesus (PBUH) leaving the earth. History alone shows a very different sequence of events than you continue to try to pass on to others on this website.

As Cyounus quotes in her email from the Qur’an, “You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.” If you refuse to do more research and continue to post things that are not accurate – even historically – then your credibility is gone. I regret that it had to come to this.

Nadirah

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by cyounus
4jay4kay

I am sorry that you feel that way. We all like discussing the subject of this forum (Islam). As for your right to be here; you have the PRIVILAGE awarded by Mr. Kaysar Ridha, the same as we all do. There is no a right of passage.

We have exstended our hand in good faith. All that is ever asked is that respect for this forum be maintained.

I'm not sure if that post expressed how I was feeling. However You keep saying all that is ever asked is to respect this forum. I'd greatly appreciate it if you could tell me when and how if I ever did disrespect this forum or any of its members? Expressing ones beliefs and opinions is very different from being disrespectful. I don't see it disrespectful when you tell me My bible is full of Errors, I just see it as your opinion, but no where have I told you that about your Quran!

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Nadirah
Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
Originally posted by cyounus
I am saying, that you cannot give adequate information about the Quran if you have a knowledge deficiency.

However, if you are here to exspand that knowledge then you are in the right place

You are correct I do not know the Quran upside down, but like I said I know enough of it to know that it contradicts The Holy Bible and My religion.
And I am here to represent my faith and what the truth is. If you are on the wrong path wouldn't you want to know? Most people would.

Jesus said Enter through the narrow gate For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

What does that verse say to you Cyn?


4J4K, I am sorry that you want to continue on posting this way. As I said earlier, I am not a confrontational person. I try to find some common ground between all who follow monotheistic religions.

I am thrilled that Kay and Ladyjinx and others have come to this website to learn more about Islam, but I am concerned that your postings discourage people from coming - is that your purpose?

You say above that: "If you are on the wrong path wouldn't you want to know? Most people would." Well, I feel just as strongly the same about you. I feel that your mind is totally closed, and that you have not done sufficient research about how the Bible and the Trinity came to be years after Jesus (PBUH) leaving the earth. History alone shows a very different sequence of events than you continue to try to pass on to others on this website.

As Cyounus quotes in her email from the Qur’an, “You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.” If you refuse to do more research and continue to post things that are not accurate – even historically – then your credibility is gone. I regret that it had to come to this.

Nadirah

Nadirah,

So are you saying The Bible and The Quran don't contradict eachother? Is that where you are referring to me refusing not to research and posting things that are not accurate or even historically correct? I'd greatly appreciate if you'd show me where I posted something in accurate or historically incorrect.


I am sorry you aren't comfortable enough in your beliefs to have a Christian post here and discuss religion like Adults.

[Ladyjinx]

I think we all need to just let this go and start over.
Religion is a very sensitive subject and its often hard to tell someones tone through the typed word. And perception, or how you percieve the tone of somthign affects how you percieve it. (or somthing to that affect).
I think we all need to make extra efforts not to disrespect someones beliefs, Myself included. I hate to see any negativity come to this forum.
The people here are all great, and have all been kind.
Its just such a sensitive topic that is so very easy to offend or take offense.
So i say we all just say no more negativity, Let this go and try to learn from it.Just my opinion and i hope i did not offend anyone with it.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by Winter80
I agree with you Cyounus- There needs to be respect.

You all keep bringing up respect. Please if I've disprespected anyone I would like to know so please copy and paste my disrespectful post if that is what you guys are saying.

I do not see expressing ones beliefs that are different as disrespectful. We all have our own beliefs and our own opinions. I don't know why religion can't be discussed like adults.

[cyounus]

Originally posted by Nadirah
Thank you all so much for all of your discussions since Kaysar opened this site. I have been reading, particularly during Ramadan - while fasting - and have found much inspiration in your writings! Cyounus has made me refer to the Qur'an and do more reading, too! :)

Thank you. The more I answer the more I learn.:) It's like the more you read and study the more you want to read and study.

[aXorb]

Ok I have recieved a couple reports on this subject and here is my 2 cents.

4J4K, you are upsetting people not with your opinions but with your obstinance. I am a Christian also and although I do not quote verses I have greater knowledge about Christianity than most. My father has degrees in both apologetics and theology, and my very close friend is also studying for his degree in apologetics.

If you want to help people see your point of view you need to relate it to them in a light they can understand. For you to sit and throw verses up and share your beliefs as an absolute is not going to help bring anyone to Christ. Do not be a Pharisee. It seems to me like you are new in your faith and very excited about it, which is good, but it is not the loudest voice with religion, it is the quiet voice of reason, that leads other people to you.

This is not about persecution, this is about being reasonable and to sit here and post about your faith when it is obviously bothering people is not only hurting your cause, but hurting Christians everywhere.

One of the best lessons you can learn in your faith is that there are no absolutes. You do not know that god really exsists. You do not know that Jesus was the son of god. You do not know anything for a fact. If it was fact then everyone would believe it and it would not be called FAITH.

So to everyone here in this thread, if you are obviously upsetting someone please take a step back and ask yourself why. If you are being overly upset by this thread do the same. If I become aware of anyone causing actual problems I will not hesitate to edit or delete posts, but I would rather people actually be able to discuss their faith and religion without having to defend or attack someone elses.

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by aXorb
Ok I have recieved a couple reports on this subject and here is my 2 cents.

4J4K, you are upsetting people not with your opinions but with your obstinance. I am a Christian also and although I do not quote verses I have greater knowledge about Christianity than most. My father has degrees in both apologetics and theology, and my very close friend is also studying for his degree in apologetics.

If you want to help people see your point of view you need to relate it to them in a light they can understand. For you to sit and throw verses up and share your beliefs as an absolute is not going to help bring anyone to Christ. Do not be a Pharisee. It seems to me like you are new in your faith and very excited about it, which is good, but it is not the loudest voice with religion, it is the quiet voice of reason, that leads other people to you.

This is not about persecution, this is about being reasonable and to sit here and post about your faith when it is obviously bothering people is not only hurting your cause, but hurting Christians everywhere.

One of the best lessons you can learn in your faith is that there are no absolutes. You do not know that god really exsists. You do not know that Jesus was the son of god. You do not know anything for a fact. If it was fact then everyone would believe it and it would not be called FAITH.

So to everyone here in this thread, if you are obviously upsetting someone please take a step back and ask yourself why. If you are being overly upset by this thread do the same. If I become aware of anyone causing actual problems I will not hesitate to edit or delete posts, but I would rather people actually be able to discuss their faith and religion without having to defend or attack someone elses.

I am here to discuss my religion, my beliefs and my opinions. I am not here with a "win them" mentality. People do not put their faith in Christ because someone forces them to. Success isn't leading someone to Chrsit. Success is acting out your Christian life, sharing the gospel and trusting God for the results. I have done nothing but communicate the gospel of Christ in a loving way. The bible tells us there is an urgency about sharing our faith. Yet some people that call themselves Christians remain silent. I don't understand it!
Maybe you think you can't make much of a difference, but you can.
I am not ashamed of the gospel and I will testify boldly and I will not compromise the gospel to avoid persecution.
2 Cor 4:8-9 We are pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.

[aXorb]

Let me rephrase this. Stop preaching the gospel in this forum. Start a new thread called "Questions & comments about the Christian gospel". This is a thread for "Muslims thoughts".

[4Jay4Kay]

Originally posted by aXorb
Let me rephrase this. Stop preaching the gospel in this forum. Start a new thread called "Questions & comments about the Christian gospel". This is a thread for "Muslims thoughts".

Wow and you said you were a Christian? Jesus said you'd know by the fruit of their spirit!
First of all Cynuous was the one that started this thread and brought over questions from the Muslim and Christian thoughts thread that I had asked and second you will see I've posted mainly under the threads that say Muslim and Christian Thoughts.

[cyounus]

4jay4kay,

I aplolgize with all my heart, if I in any way, shap or form have done something or said something that would hurt you. I would never want you to feel that you are not welcomed here. Infact I like the things you say, but for some it can be overwelming. Please accept my applolgy.

[aXorb]

Well all things must come to an end. You sir, are a zealot and are here for your own glorification. Do not come to a forum and try to preach something you obviously have no grasp of. You do not show compassion, faith, or even a slight understanding of the message behind the gospel. So take your misguided, uninformed zealotry to another venue. Thanks and have a nice day. :)

[Winter80-sara]

Thank you aXorb for your posts. Maybe everyone will get along now.;)

[aXorb]

He's banned. He attacked my religion for trying to stop an incident. Sorry to have let this go on as long as it did. Thanks to those who informed me of the problem. Please don't let this interrupt this thread.

[Winter80-sara]

Thanks for taking care of the problem. I like how you threw in the Have a nice day with the :)

[pax_vobiscum]

Actions speak louder than words.
Well done,aX. Originally posted by aXorb
He's banned. He attacked my religion for trying to stop an incident. Sorry to have let this go on as long as it did. Thanks to those who informed me of the problem.

[boobev]

This is my last post here!
I feel some people did not like 4J4K because he is telling the truth!
He was only expressing his opinion and beliefs the same as we all have been doing.
The topic of this Forum Isn't Muslims beliefs it started as
Muslims & Christian thoughts on Jesus Christ
so why can't a Christian post there beliefs......If christians arn't welcome here then i guess it means you want me to go to.
Jesus said to turn the other cheek. I will not fuss with I will go and bless you all with my prayers
God bless you all,
Beverly

[Pollock]

Well all things must come to an end. You sir, are a zealot and are here for your own glorification. Do not come to a forum and try to preach something you obviously have no grasp of. You do not show compassion, faith, or even a slight understanding of the message behind the gospel. So take your misguided, uninformed zealotry to another venue. Thanks and have a nice day.


Originally posted by aXorb
He's banned. He attacked my religion for trying to stop an incident. Sorry to have let this go on as long as it did. Thanks to those who informed me of the problem. Please don't let this interrupt this thread.


No disrespect, but your posts seem a bit hypocritical to me axorb. I fail to see how the teachings and beliefs of Christianity justify your actions or your words in this matter.

I also don't think banning someone from discussion shines the best light on either Christians or Muslims.

Ethic of reciprocity (Golden rule):

Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Matthew 7:12

Islam:
"Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." Fourth Hadith of an-Nawawi 13

[Kay]

Wow!
aXorb, thank you for settling this.
Now we can get back to sharing and learning from others.

[aXorb]

I do realize that this is a religion forum, however the reasons for his banning were not because of religious beliefs, nor did I back up my reasons for banning him with religion. I posted and asked him to keep to the conversation for the most part and sent him a couple u2u's asking him to either stay on topic or start his own thread. Instead of following forum guidelines he chose to declare persecution and try and attack a members personal faith, both of which are unacceptable by any person on this forum myself included.

I'm not in these threads to debate religion or discuss these topics, my sole purpose in here is to cool a heated topic by whatever means necessary. In this case the necessary means was to remove him from the board since he obstinantly refused to follow guidelines. Boobev, it was not his beliefs I diagreed with, it was his methods of sharing them.

If you were offended by the way I handled it I apologize for offending you but as an administrator I have to look out for the good of the board and keep things civilized. Christianity does not justify why I banned him, the responsibilty of the tag that says "Administrator" next to my name does.

[Pollock]

Originally posted by aXorb

If you were offended by the way I handled it I apologize for offending you but as an administrator I have to look out for the good of the board and keep things civilized. Christianity does not justify why I banned him, the responsibilty of the tag that says "Administrator" next to my name does.


Fair enough. I apologize if I took your words out of context.

[Molly]

Ahhh! I finally found part 2! You guys kept saying go to part 2 and I couldnt find it. LOL I have some reading to do. :)

[Molly]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
My main problemb with the bible is that many people can read it and each one can tell you the meaning is somthing different then the other.
(I am not attacking it or putting it down i know its a very revered holy book)
However David Korish (not sure of spelling) used it for his purposes........
the kool aid guy (forgot his name, on tip of tongue but cant remember exactly) used it for his purposes.

My point being you can usually get what ever it is you want out of it.......instead of just seeing clearly what its supposed to say.

You know, I agree with that to some extent. There are a lot of people who take the Bible and spew venom with it....justifying anything because "the bible says.." But all religions have extremists that will twist the meaning, turning good into evil.

[Molly]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Well its my personal beleif that there is only ONE God, so the God of the Bible is the same God of the Quran.
He is the God of everything, cuz he is God.
Now you may disagree on the messages, because we are human and not all knowing. But there is only one God.
I just cant even concieve of there being more then one God.

I believe that as humans we want to classify God as this or that, according to what religion we belong to. There isnt one God over here who is the Christian God and one God over there who is the Muslim God and one God way over there who is the Native American God (The Great Spirt). I believe that God is God no matter what faith we belong to. I also believe in Jesus and that he is the son of God, no matter how crazy and illogical that may seem to some people. I guess that when we die, we will all find out which interpretation of him is correct, because in all honesty none of us knows for sure until we die. Our faith is what leads us to our conclusions. JMO. Sorry for the rambling. lol

[Molly]

Originally posted by 4Jay4Kay
So there is no such thing as a Christian Muslim? or you just dont know?

I'm pretty sure Kaysar and Janelle were joking around. She called him a Christain Muslim virgin. They were playing. I don't think it was serious.

[Molly]

Originally posted by cyounus
I am Native American, converted several years ago. married with 2 boys 24y/o and 11y/o.

Before you ask, No I did not convert for my husband (I do not believe in that) I converted before I met him.

You are Native American? What tribe? My daughter is Penobscot.

[Molly]

Originally posted by Hashman
In addition to "Islam in the Bible", you should read the book "The Bible, The Quran and Science" by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (a non-Muslim). Here's an excerpt from the conclusion, which I also posted elsewhere on this site:

The Qur'an follows on from the two Revelations that preceded it and is not only free from contradictions in its narrations, the sign of the various human manipulations to be found in the Gospels, but provides a quality all of its own for those who examine it objectively and in the light of science i.e. its complete agreement with modern scientific data. What is more, statements are to be found in it (as has been shown) that are connected with science: and yet it is unthinkable that a man of Muhammad's time could have been the author of them. Modern scientific knowledge therefore allows us to understand certain verses of the Qur'an which, until now, it has been impossible to interpret.

The comparison of several Biblical and Qur'anic narrations of the same subject shows the existence of fundamental differences between statements in the former, which are scientifically unacceptable, and declarations in the latter which are in perfect agreement with modern data: this was the case of the Creation and the Flood, for example. An extremely important complement to the Bible was found in the text of the Qur'an on the subject of the history of the Exodus, where the two texts were very much in agreement with archaeological findings, in the dating of the time of Moses. Besides, there are major differences between the Qur'an and the Bible on the other subjects: they serve to disprove all that has been maintained-without a scrap of evidence-concerning the allegation that Muhammad is supposed to have copied the Bible to produce the text of the Qur'an.

When a comparative study is made between the statements connected with science to be found in the collection of hadiths, which are attributed to Muhammad but are often of dubious authenticity (although they reflect the beliefs of the period), and the data of a similar kind in the Qur'an, the disparity becomes so obvious that any notion of a common origin is ruled out.

In view of the level of knowledge in Muhammad's day, it is inconceivable that many of the statements In the Qur'an which are connected with science could have been the work of a man. It is, moreover, perfectly legitimate, not only to regard the Qur'an as the expression of a Revelation, but also to award it a very special place, on account of the guarantee of authenticity it provides and the presence in it of scientific statements which, when studied today, appear as a challenge to explanation in human terms.

That conclusion addresses some of your questions directly.

You can find the full text at http://home.swipnet.se/islam/quran-bible.htm

Sounds interesting.

[Molly]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Well i'm still trying to figure out just what a "Christian" is.
Some say its beleiving that Jesus was God but there are other so called "Christians" who do not beleive Jesus was God.
So i'm very confused there.

I think if a person is a "Christian" they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. There are several denominations of Christianity though. Cathlolics have all kinds of statues and do the rosary, pray to the Virgin Mary etc...while most Protestant denominations don't. They believe in going straight to the source. Regardless though, Jesus is the central figure in Christianity. Without him there would be no Christians.

[Molly]

Originally posted by Ottojr
I keep it simple by being an atheist. :)

LOL.

[Ladyjinx]

Ahh somewhere i heard that there where some "Christian" Churches that did not believe that Jesus was god.
I really dont know , when it comes to religion im mostly clueless, just what i had heard though.

[Molly]

Originally posted by aXorb
Aetheism is not simple. There is a lot more work to it than you probably think. The idea of being an Atheist is that you believe there is no God and you can support it with evidence. I believe the simple version is Agnosticism. That means you don't know.

I agree. Being an athiest would probably be totally hard. You have people coming at you from all the religions to state their case. The most famous athiest was Maddlyn Murray Ohair. She was an interesting character.

[Molly]

To the people who converted to Muslim:

What made you convert? What made you say--aha! This is it! What was the thing that swayed you? Thanks!

[cyounus]

Molly
That may need to be a thread all it's own.:) you may get many answer to this one.

[Molly]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
I think we all need to just let this go and start over.
Religion is a very sensitive subject and its often hard to tell someones tone through the typed word. And perception, or how you percieve the tone of somthign affects how you percieve it. (or somthing to that affect).
I think we all need to make extra efforts not to disrespect someones beliefs, Myself included. I hate to see any negativity come to this forum.
The people here are all great, and have all been kind.
Its just such a sensitive topic that is so very easy to offend or take offense.
So i say we all just say no more negativity, Let this go and try to learn from it.Just my opinion and i hope i did not offend anyone with it.

I agree. It's hard to tell someones intentions through a computer screen. Religion is such a sensitive subject and one comment can be misconstrued.

[Hashman]

Originally posted by Ladyjinx
Ahh somewhere i heard that there where some "Christian" Churches that did not believe that Jesus was god.
I really dont know , when it comes to religion im mostly clueless, just what i had heard though.
Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses are two groups that would be considered "Christian" and that do not believe in the trinity.

It says at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity :

"Most Christians believe that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is so central to the Christian faith, that to deny it is to reject the Christian faith entirely. However a number of nontrinitarian groups, both throughout history and today, identify themselves as Christians but reject the doctrine of the Trinity in any form, arguing that theirs was the original pre-Nicean understanding. Some ancient sects, such as the Ebionites, said that Jesus was not a "Son of God", but rather an ordinary man who was a prophet. Many modern groups also teach a nontrinitarian understanding of God. These include The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Living Church of God, Christian Scientists, the Unification Church, Unitarian Universalists, American Unitarian Conference, Branhamists, Frankists, Oneness Pentecostals and the splinter groups of Armstrongism, among others. These groups differ from one another in their view of God, but all alike reject the doctrine of the Trinity."

[Hashman]

Sorry, can't edit previous post... Just wanted to add something else to that quote. Later on in that page, it describes some of the reasoning of the nontrinitarian Christians:

"Nontrinitarian Christians have long contended that the doctrine of the Trinity is a prime example of Christian borrowing from pagan sources. A simpler idea of God was supposedly lost very early in the history of the Church, through accommodation to pagan ideas, and the incomprehensible doctrine of the Trinity took its place."

Then it lists some examples....

[Molly]

Originally posted by cyounus
Molly
That may need to be a thread all it's own.:) you may get many answer to this one.

Your right. I should probably post it in a seperate thread. Thoughts come up and I post them. I need to stay on topic. lol